Just one key part of the argument:
Russia sees the spread of democratization as a threat to its control of the ‘Near Abroad.’ It has been pushing quite deliberately for a redefinition of the norms of territorial integrity and intervention that would legitimate its continued presence in Georgia and elsewhere, and allow it to reconsolidate control over what it perceives as its rightful sphere of influence. What it would like to see is tacit or active recognition by other great powers of its right to intervene in countries such as Georgia, the Ukraine, Moldova etc. The Western powers have their own economic interests in the region, which they have been pushing assiduously, but also would quite genuinely would prefer to see democracies consolidate themselves in this band of countries…
But read the whole thing.
Also, while I’ve seen a fair number of comments about Georgian perception of Western support leading to their intransigence in negotiations and preference for a military solution, I haven’t seen as many noting that the South Ossetian leadership has a blank check from Russia and absolutely no need to give even a millimeter in negotiations. It’s certainly relevant to sorting out the dynamics and the motivations.
This blg has become totally unpalatble. “Doug Merill” is an american low-level agent who was sent to the region in advance but didn’t even get the deluxe evacuation, so good was the whipping his agency got.
His writings here are a clear example of astroturfing to spread fascist ideology.
> It has been pushing quite deliberately for a redefinition of the norms of territorial integrity and intervention that would legitimate its continued presence in Georgia and elsewhere, and allow it to reconsolidate control over what it perceives as its rightful sphere of influence.
Actually, US started first to redefine norms of territorial integrity — they attacked couple of countries (Serbia, Iraq, many LatAm countries in the past) without UN authorization. US recognized independence of Kosovo without Serbian ascent.
> I haven’t seen as many noting that the South Ossetian leadership has a blank check from Russia and absolutely no need to give even a millimeter in negotiations.
Like Kosovo leadership which was given blank check by US and didn’t move single millimeter in status negotiations — they were not willing to compromise on status at all.
US doesn’t have right to complain about changed rules when they changed them themselves.
“Doug Merill†is an american low-level agent”
Wow. Cool! I never even knew.
“His writings here are a clear example of astroturfing to spread fascist ideology.”
Care to expand on that, Emil?
Henry seems to be trying to rationalize the western double standard. Um, it appears he is saying that interest is more real were imperial/economic interests exist and less so where it involves people and neighbors. Western interest is generally couched as “democracy.”
The real question is whether Psycho-Saakashivli was practicing democracy when he let go a massive barage of missles against civilians. Based on the US and EU reaction, that sort of violence is democratic. This explains Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan too.
It seems people have trouble telling the difference between democracy and pacificism.
Ever since George Washington put down the Whiskey Rebellion with military force in recognition of the federal government’s right to collect taxes, internal use of force has been part of democratic governance.
It’s strange that some confuse trivial tax insurrection with more complicated issues dealing with minority peoples right to self determination within a recognized border. The South Ossetians don’t recognize Psycho-Saakashvili. They didn’t vote for him and didn’t vote against him. They where addressed under a Peace Agreement. Did the whiskey drinkers/makers have a similar situation????
Massive missile attacks against women, children and the elderly in order to subjugate a minority population is not democratic. That would be something else, a weaker form of government. This is especially true when the missile attack is done by someone that was only elected by about 27% of his electorate.
If the S. Ossetians and Abkhazians were included as voters, his winning margin percentage would have been lower. Furthermore, he was elected under marginal circumstances due to election practice irregularities. OSCE barely accepted it (feeling uncomfortable).
Pacifism is a democratic value, along with the responsibility to make wise decisions to protect the health and well being of the countries citizens. Health and well being is something the people want more than these autonomous regions, I think. Missile attacks against those autonomous civilians that are believed to be part of the country also fails the democratic test.
Instigating a war that kills citizens you represent is irresponsible leadership and not democratic.
Negotiation to find a equitable and sustainable solution that safe guards public health and safety is democratic. Unfortunately Georgia, the EU, and US have lost this democratic value for their economic interest. Henry notes this in what he said. If some want to couch my position as pacifism, that’s OK. It’s democratic.
Like inkadu said, the cultural and historical outlook of a little child is one of the things that unite the fascists. It also betrays them, repeatedly.
If the S. Ossetians and Abkhazians were included as voters, his winning margin percentage would have been lower.
But you don’t believe they are part of Georgia, so why on earth should they vote there?
It really is just about power-worship with you, isn’t it?
Actually, Emil, you’re right. He’s always in these places, no?
What you don’t know is that I’m actually an MI5 agent assigned to keep an eye on the Dougs – I’ve yet to confirm how many of them there really are. I’m here as part of a UK-German joint investigation into what my controller thought was a serious menace to national security – that is to say, he thought this was an MI6 operation. So I was infiltrated here with the aid of Tobias, who is actually a Bundestrojaner, not a human.
Now, AFOE itself was set up by the Swedish SIPO and a rogue CIA team opposed to President Bush, in order to disseminate liberal propaganda. David actually works for the Forsvaretsradioanstalt.
As for Guy, well, I don’t know what the French were thinking; surely they knew that covername wouldn’t stand a moment’s scrutiny? Also, all these “subtitlers” – people who spend their time watching video and taking notes. Way suspicious. Obviously his mission is to watch the Brits, ie me.
The complicated one is Ed. I’ve no idea who’s behind him. Maybe the Chinese.
Hi Alex. I find your comments highly inaccurate. This is a common theme here. I forgot; who provides money for this website, Imperial EU countries and their industries?
“Power Worship?” You must be looking in the mirror Alex. Accusing me of having your position is pretty immature. But as an EU worshipper, I understand where you come from.
“But you don’t believe they are part of Georgia, so why on earth should they vote there?”
Where did I ever say that? Your assumption is incorrect. In fact, I think they should NEGOTIATE a solution. It’s about time that people realize that they have to live together. No border changes. If they don’t like where they live, they should work to improve the situation (without weapons), live with their grievances, or move the hell out. I know this position is a little too mature for AFOE staff.
Minorities of the world should never expect anymore border changes…EVER. Otherwise, we’ll be irresponsibly making hundreds of more non-viable states like Kosovo in the Balkans, Central Europe, Asia, Africa…
Unfortunately, the EU and US have not taken this path. They’ve taken on a double standard. It shows how immature their governments are. Everything is Sui Generis. It’s time Bildt, Merkel, Kouchner, Solano, Bush and the rest pull their heads out of their ….
At the same time, countries with minorities need to respect their human rights and integrate them into the society. Countries that foster guerilla movements need to be addressed in the UN or International Courts.
I don’t see that Russia has created any new countries, like the EU and NATO have been doing.
Which new counties do you see Alex? Whose power forced them? If the EU and US can do, so can others, including future and upcoming powers. How many countries do you want to make out of Iraq, Georgia, Bosnia, Macedonia, China, Russia, Ruwanda, India, Sudan, Afghanistan,……..?
What the fuck are you on about?
What the fuck are you on about?
Really democratic, Alex — what kind of language it is?
Let me distill for you since you have no patience to read everything Todd wrote:
Since western countries decided to recognize secession of part of sovereign country (Kosovo from Serbia) without its approval, they cannot hold that borders are set in stone — obviously they can be changed without UN approval.
Since western countries decided to bomb Serbia without UN approval, as well as Iraq and Lebanon, they cannot say that use of force should be backed by UN approval.
In US eyes, everybody should respect international law except them.
Shorter: Whatever the Russian government likes is OK because of Kosovo.
Bomb lebanon? you mean Israel? When did Georgia cross the border into Russia and kidnap Russian soldiers? When did they fire rockets at Russia? How long has Georgia denied the existence of Russia?
I see lots of SHWIers here. Perhaps this is an alt history in which Israel attacked Lebanon without provocation? Or perhaps one where the Serbs had only a few hours to ethnically cleanse Kosovar Albanians, rather than weeks?
Shorter: Whatever the Russian government likes is OK because of Kosovo.
Exactly my point. US can do whatever they want regardless of international law, so Russia can, too.
Absolutely correct Srbin. However, the EU is a lock step with the US.
About Lebanon – it is true that Israel took their defence well beyond the area of immediate conflict. It was much like the Russian answer to Georgia for their Peace Agreement violation. I don’t recall hear the US or EU rebuking them for it. Pure double standards.
As for Kosovo, it took NATO 78 days to get the refugee crisis to peak, eventually agreeing to much less than the extortion they demanded at Rambolliet. The US has exceeded that bar in Irag with millions of refugees cleansed.
http://www.nhpr.org/node/17069
Israel had the legal right to go further. Hezbollah was not a legal sovereign state with which Israel had a minor territorial dispute, rather it was a terrorist organization whose announced goal was and is the destruction of Israel. And it attacked ISRAELI territory.
Georgia is a sovereign state, a member of the UN, and it moved its forces into a portion of its own territory. The comparison is just one more example of big lie propaganda.
Your statement about Kosovo is simply incoherent. NATO waited and negotiated with Serbia, while serbia ethnically cleansed. Ergo totally unlike the situation in S Ossetia.
As for Iraq, the US has been fighting against teh elements in Iraq that committed sectarian warfare.
Thanks for the humor Liberalhawk.
Israel invaded Lebanon. It’s a sovereign nation noted on most maps. If what they did was defensive, which it was, they still bombed Beruit and the civilians thereof. Beruit was very far outside the conflict zone. It was worse or at least equal to what Russia has done, for what we know of that conflict. Israel didn’t invade Hezbollah. Where the hell is that?
In the case of Georgia, it attacked Russian peacekeepers and Russian citizens. That was all Russia needed to answer defensively. Russian peacekeepers were already in Georgia under agreement.
Your understanding of what NATO did lacks any ground truth. NATO negotiated in bad faith to start a war. That fact is well documented. It had no UN resolution and was not acting defensively. All information before their illegal aggression proved false and/or questionable. Most of their targets were non military. The large scale refugee crisis (all ethnic group where refugees) started after NATO aggression. You need to check your sources. It was the most cowardly act the US has done since Grenada.
The US has ethnically cleased 4 million of the Iraqi people (refugees). You may want to call them secretarians. Most knowledgable people call them Iraqis. The US didn’t let sovereign state borders or the lack of a UN resolution interfere with their aggression.
I suggest using more media outlets than just one. If you are from Alabama or the U.K.(little America), it is still not an excuse.
Israel was attacked on Israeli sov territory. By hezbollah, which had de facto control of S lebanon and S beirut, and its attacks on beirut were on Hezb installations.
Georgian attacks were on Georgian territory. Period. Russian troops were there to act as peacekeepers, a mandate they failed to keep. As for the presence of Russian citizens, that has NO force in international law. You DONT get a causus belli on another state by granting citizenship to some of ITS citizens. It should be obvious why.
Kosovo has been argued ad nauseum, and you have no evidence but your assertions. In fact the assertions of massacres in Kosovo proved true. At the time Slobo apologists asked why NATO didnt find bodies in Kosovo. Later the Serbs themselves found the bodies, in Serbia. Youd think Slobo apologists would have learned some humility, but apparently not.
The US did not ethically cleanse anyone in Iraq. Ethnically cleansing is a DELIBERATE act. The US fought to stop ethnic cleansing in Iraq.
I have access to many news sources, including russian ones. I sugggest you not recommned watching Russian TV news to neutrals – it will only show them how distorted, emotional, one sided, and dishonest the entire Russian reaction is.